Scarto

  • Mensagens: 123
O problema reportado, ao que constou, tratou-se de unreliable airspeed indication.

Assumindo que esta tripulação teve a mesma avaria, então estamos perante um caso semelhante ao AF447 no Atlântico, voo privado (CL604) no Irão ou o AN148 da Saratov em Moscovo.

Então tratou-se de um acidente provocado por stall que à altitude em que aconteceu poucas hipóteses tinham de recuperação. Pelos vistos a anomalia não deve ter sido devidamente corrigida.

Cps

Demasiado cedo, para se ter "certezas". Alias esse problema só acontecia no lado do piloto, logo deveriam ter usado os dados do lado do co-piloto tal como no voo anterior.

Engenheiros australianos, falam numa outra hipotese relacionada com o estabilizador horizontal e os actuadores, o que até certo ponto seria compativel com o padrão de subidas e descidas erráticas.

ClearedForTakeOff

  • Moderador
  • Mensagens: 1234
    • Aviation Blog
É a primeira perda total de um NB da nova geração (Max/Neo), ou estarei errado?

Foi. Só não foi obra da Air France...porque não os opera 737MAX.

Os únicos airliners a voar ainda hoje cuja produção já encerrou ainda com hipóteses de 100% hull safety record:
A318
A345
B753
B764
B748i
B736?
B777LR

A Air France é um dos maiores opreadores de Boeing 777, com 70 unidades, e até hoje não perdeu nenhum. Cinco companhias não podem dizer o mesmo.

Ainda bem que avisas...

Mas não são de se fiar:
"A AF foi a primeira airline do mundo a ter acidentes em voo, com abate da aeronave, do:

- A300 (B4-200)
- A320 (-100) * o de Habhseim
- A330 (-200) *
- A340 (-300) * Toronto, e o primeiro -200 foi também da AF num incêndio ao sair da manutenção, em CDG.
- Concorde, CDG
- SNCASE SE.161 Languedoc, 1947
- Latécoère 63, em 1948
..No Caravelle foram o segundo operador a destruir um exemplar, e 4º no Connie."
 
http://clearedfortakeoff.blogspot.com/2009/06/os-a380-da-air-france-sao-os-menos.html

Byte Boador

  • Mensagens: 119
Air Chance...

E a culpa é sempre dos outros
“Success is not final, failure is not fatal.
It is the courage to continue that counts“

Winston Churchill

ClearedForTakeOff

  • Moderador
  • Mensagens: 1234
    • Aviation Blog


Na sequência do que venho lendo faço uma pergunta :
neste modelo especifico as leituras falsas de velocidade implicam um desligamento imediato do piloto automático?

Cumprimentos
JP Andrade

Acho que essa questão pode ser vista de outro modo, até porque os aviões são feitos para voar à mão também.
A velocidade vem do pitot.
Mas o altímetro vem da tomada de pressão estática e essa não ficou obstruida. Um avião que não perde altitude não pode estar em stall.
O sensor de angulo de ataque está no exterior, tal como o pitot, e serve para dar aviso de perda.

Antes de qualquer manobra drástica há que olhar para o Horizonte Artifical. Este não depende de qualquer sensor. É um giroscópio alimentado electronicamente, enquando o avião tiver energia estará a funcionar.

Logo:
1 - Esta a manter altitude: não está certamente em perda
2 - Tem asas niveladas e atitude ligeiramente positiva (tipo 3 graus) no Horizonte Artifical: dificilmente estará em risco de perda, a não ser high speed stall
3- Motores a funcionar à potência desejada: dificilmente terá tendência a perder altitude ou reduzir drasticamente a velocidade, se 1 e 2 estiverem OK.

Estas coisa são básicas, e bastante explicadas até num PPA. Delas depende a segurnça de voo. Tudo isto vem antes de de pensaar em navegação ou comunicações. Existem procedimentos para recupração de perdas, ninguém é ensinado a pensar "à desenrasca".

O F/O do AF447 ouviu 74 avisos de stall durante os 4 minutos que levou ao mar, e manteve o nariz do avião no ar, cancelando os inputs do colega à direita.

Resumindo: qualquer piloto minimamente decente (devida formação, perfil adequado, possuidor de cultura de segurança e CRM) saberá olhar para todos estes instrumentos e interpretar o que se está a passar e tomar ações corretivas.

Spak

  • Mensagens: 5501
Citação
Lion Air jet’s airspeed indicator malfunctioned on 4 flights

The “black box” data recorder from a crashed Lion Air jet shows its airspeed indicator malfunctioned on its last four flights, investigators said Monday, just hours after distraught relatives of victims confronted the airline’s co-founder at a meeting organized by officials. National Transportation Safety Committee chairman Soerjanto Tjahjono said the problem was similar on each of the four flights, including the fatal flight on Oct. 29 in which the plane plunged into the Java Sea minutes after taking off from Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

Erratic speed and altitude on the plane’s previous flight, from Denpasar on Bali to Jakarta, were widely reported and “when we opened the black box, yes indeed the technical problem was the airspeed or the speed of the plane,” Tjahjono told a news conference. “Data from the black box showed that two flights before Denpasar-Jakarta also experienced the same problem,” he said. “In the black box there were four flights that experienced problems with the airspeed indicator.”

Indonesian investigators, the plane’s manufacturer, Boeing, and the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board are formulating a more specific inspection for Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes related to the airspeed problem, Tjahjono said. “If there are urgent findings to be delivered, we will convey them to the operators and to the manufacturer,” he said. Lion Air has said a technical problem with the jet was fixed after problems with the Bali to Jakarta flight.

Investigator Nurcahyo Utomo said investigators need to review maintenance records, including what problems were reported, what repairs were done including whether components were replaced, and how the repairs were tested before the 2-month-old plane was declared airworthy. “Currently we are looking for the cause of problem,” he said “Whether the trouble came from its indicator, its measuring device or sensor, or a problem with its computer. This is what we do not know yet and we will find it out,” he said.

At the meeting with family members, Tjahjono had said that information downloaded from the jet’s flight data recorder was consistent with reports that the plane’s speed and altitude were erratic after takeoff on its final flight. Searchers are still trying to locate the cockpit voice recorder. Rusdi Kirana, Lion Air’s co-founder, was not invited to speak by Transport Minister Budi Karya Sumadi, who moderated the meeting between relatives and the officials who are overseeing the search effort and accident investigation.

But he stood and bowed his head after angry and distraught family members demanded that Kirana, who with his brother Kusnan Kirana founded Lion Air in 1999, identify himself. “Lion Air has failed,” said a man who identified himself as the father of passenger Shandy Johan Ramadhan, a prosecutor in a district on the island where the flight was headed. “I want Mr. Rusdi Kirana and his team to pay attention,” he said. “Since the time of the crisis, I was never contacted by Lion Air. We lost our child, but there was no empathy that Lion Air showed to us.” After the meeting, Kirana left in a hurry, avoiding questions from reporters.

Many families face an agonizing wait for missing relatives to be identified. Police medical experts have received nearly 140 body bags of human remains and have identified 14 victims. Relatives questioned why the plane had been cleared to fly after suffering problems on its Bali to Jakarta flight on Oct. 28 that included a rapid descent after takeoff that terrified passengers.

“Lion Air said the problem was fixed, is it true the problem was cleared?” asked Bambang Sukandar, whose son was on the flight. “If not, technicians in charge must be responsible,” he said. “The law is absolute, because they have stated that the plane was cleared to take off again. These bad technicians must be processed by law to prevent plane accidents from continuing in Indonesia.” Tjahjono said the large amount of small debris and the relatively small area the debris was found in showed the plane hit the water at a very high speed. “The plane was intact when it plunged to the sea, it did not explode in the air, and the aircraft engine was running when it touched the water at high RPM – it’s marked by the loss of all blades of the turbine,” he said.

The Lion Air crash is the worst airline disaster in Indonesia since 1997, when 234 people died on a Garuda flight near Medan. In December 2014, an AirAsia flight from Surabaya to Singapore plunged into the sea, killing all 162 on board. Lion Air is one of Indonesia’s youngest airlines but has grown rapidly, flying to dozens of domestic and international destinations. It has been expanding aggressively in Southeast Asia, a fast-growing region of more than 600 million people.

toto1100

  • Mensagens: 2435
Parece que vai haver "safety warning" (nao sei se é termo tecnico ou nao, nao parece ser uma AD) por causa de eventuais problemas no 737MAX que poderao ter tido influencia neste acidente: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-07/boeing-is-said-close-to-issuing-safety-bulletin-on-737-max-jets

iloper

  • Mensagens: 1493

toto1100

  • Mensagens: 2435
Isso tinha sido colocado no post imediatamente acima do teu.

nunopinheiro

  • Mensagens: 3039
Parece então que as declarações de incompetência e pior da empresa indonésia sobre este caso poderão ser precipitadas.

toto1100

  • Mensagens: 2435

toto1100

  • Mensagens: 2435
O caso nao esta famoso para a Boeing:

Citação
Boeing withheld information about possible hazards connected to a new flight control system that may have played a role in a fatal Lion Air crash off the coast of Indonesia in October, The Wall Street Journal reported Monday. "The automated stall-prevention system on Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 models — intended to help cockpit crews avoid mistakenly raising a plane's nose dangerously high — under unusual conditions can push it down unexpectedly and so strongly that flight crews can't pull it back up," write Andy Pasztor and Andrew Tangel. Pilots and managers in the U.S. weren't told that the system had been added. And an FAA manager told the Journal that the new system wasn't highlighted in training materials or talks between carriers and regulators about beginning use of the new 737s. The Oct. 29 crash killed all 189 people on board.

Daqui: https://www.politico.com/morningtransportation/

tareias77

  • Mensagens: 4672
É por essas e por outras, que se deve esperar pelas conclusões da investigação.

Byte Boador

  • Mensagens: 119
“Success is not final, failure is not fatal.
It is the courage to continue that counts“

Winston Churchill

Wazkovzky

  • Mensagens: 2

CS-TOV

  • Mensagens: 26

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